Podcast: How military precision can improve safety performance in manufacturing operations
Key Highlights
- Consistent, everyday behaviors—not peak performance moments—drive long-term safety success.
- Listening with curiosity helps leaders uncover hidden barriers to safe work.
- High-risk industries rely on trust and communication, core skills also vital in manufacturing.
- Managing exposure proactively protects teams and improves EHS outcomes across operations.
In this episode of Great Question: A Manufacturing Podcast, Caroline Johnson talks with Nicole Stempak, Managing Editor of EHS Today, to share some of the lessons she learned about leadership from her time in the U.S. Navy and how her fellow officers continue to inspire her as an executive advisor and coach with DEKRA.
Below is an excerpt from the podcast:
NS: Our guest today is Caroline Johnson, executive advisor and coach for the safety consultancy DEKRA. Caroline was previously a faculty member at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business and Harris School of Public Policy, where she specialized in individual, team and organizational leadership. Caroline also published a memoir about her time as a pilot with the U.S. Navy.
It's great to have you here today, Caroline. I want to start by thanking you for your service, and I was wondering if you could tell us more about your time in the Navy and what your time in the Navy taught you about safety.
CJ: Oh, wow. Nicole, thank you so much for having me here this afternoon. I am just thrilled to be sitting down and talking a little bit about my background in the U.S. Navy and also working with safety and leadership. So my career started in 2009 when I graduated and commissioned out of the United States Naval Academy and I began my career actually in flight school in Pensacola, FL, where I went through years of training and essentially got a master's degree in flying. So I finished with my wings of gold and I actually my career in the Navy was flying F-18s.
Those are called Super Hornets is the variant that I flew and we launched off of aircraft carriers, flew behind enemy lines and operated in very high stakes environments. And my job specifically in that business was I flew in the back seat, so I was goose. I did all the missiles bombs, weapons targeting, all the tactical employment of the aircraft was my responsibility.
But also one thing people don't realize is that while our primary focus was operating the aircraft tactically, we were also responsible for the safety and well-being of enlisted members who did the maintenance, who worked on the flight deck. And so I had 25 young men and women who worked for me and managed the aviation electronics and the avionics of the aircraft. So that's all the beeps and squeaks that make it go. And these men and women were absolutely incredible when we deployed in 2014 for nine months aboard the USS George HW Bush. These men and women were working 12 hours a day on the flight deck of the aircraft carrier, which is one of the most dangerous places in the world. It's just absolutely incredible. You have hundreds of aircraft and thousands of people working on the aircraft carrier to put ordinance downrange on target on time and all the while they're operating at this incredibly fast pace where there is just exposure everywhere. And I learned very quickly, not only for myself, how to be safe, you know, while going to the merge in a dog flight flying 1000 miles an hour of closure.
But also one of the most dangerous parts of my job was even walking to the aircraft and being able to get inside the aircraft because there was always a jet engine spooling up and you know you had jet blasts and you had things that you were going to trip on. You had things that were just trying to get you all the time.
And so the way that I learned to manage my exposure and really control the things around me and be able to look out for not only myself and others was so foundational in my career and managing risk and being very proactive about things has influenced the way that you know not only I go about safety in my professional life as an executive advisor and coach at DEKRA, but also in my personal life. I have a two-year-old and you better bet he's wearing his helmet all the time. He's a daredevil out doing these crazy things, but you know that's a really important foundation of my life that that goes through everything that I do. So every mental calculation. So you know, I flew for many years in the Navy. Then I did leadership development at the Naval Academy, went back. I've been in service for almost 17 years now on active duty and reserve duty. And man, what a great place to start my career and continue it as a reserve officer.
I never wanted to write a book. My story wasn't one to tell, and I just so happened to meet my co-author and agent. It's very serendipitous. I feel like, you know, there's something in the universe that puts us in the right place at the right time with the right attitude and a lot of things come out of a lot of good things happen essentially. And so I ended up meeting my co-author and I actually resisted writing a book for about two years and he kept pushing this project forward and I was pretty uncomfortable with it because when I finished my flying career, I flew actively in the Navy for about 7 years before I went back to the Naval Academy to be a professor.
It wasn't the best time in my life. I was in my mid 20s, and when you leave a high-performing job like that, even to go to another great job, there's this sense of loss and sense of mourning. And I was kind of going through that and I didn't feel like I wasn't Top Gun. I wasn't anyone to write a story about. And it wasn't until I got back to the Naval Academy and I was teaching leadership to these young men and women who were just, I was so inspired by them. I'm like, you're awesome. Like, don't you want to go fly fighter jets? And these young men and women are like, I can't do that. I'm not smart enough. I'm not athletic enough. I'm not good enough to go do that. You know, frankly, it scares me. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're smarter. You're a faster runner, you can think on your toes better than I could ever do that. And when I realized that it took, you know, us telling our stories and being real and being vulnerable and being able to create a bridge of connection with people that helps inspire and empower those future generations and lift each other up is when I finally got on board with it.
And so the book actually took four years to write and to get through the Pentagon's approval process, to get through publishing, to actually finally launch. And it took a lot, a lot of collaboration at one point ballooned up to 500 pages and then we whittled it down and so I never knew how difficult it was to write a best-selling book, but blood, sweat and tears went into it and I'm really proud of the product that came out of it.
NS: You brought up so many things that I think are worth noting. One, it sounds like you learned as a leader during the time that you were writing the book because you were a, you know, an instructor and being inspired by others. Two, it sounds like you can't overestimate the importance of and difficulty with communication. And the other thing when you were talking about some of the statistics with the aircraft ships is the importance of consistency.
And so with leadership, I think we often talk about achievement, but where we veer off, I suspect with our community, sorry, with our discussions is how we got there and not how we keep hitting that mark like when you're returning and so um. I just didn't know if there's anything to those points or observations that I've just made that you wanted to quickly note.
CJ: OK, I'm going to try to tackle this without going too deep down any crazy rabbit holes, because you just hit on three things that I'm passionate about. And so in teaching leadership for, you know, the last decade and working with senior executives for about the last five years, these are topics that I talk about day in and day out. And as high performers, we wouldn't be tuned into this podcast if we didn't want to grow and challenge ourselves and achieve these high levels of performance.
But what I've actually realized over time, and especially in flying and being in the cockpit, when we would go out and do seven and a half hour missions in a space that was smaller than sitting, you know, in the very back of the commercial plane, whether it's Southwest or American or whatever commercial carrier you're on, you have to realize we were kitted up with over 50 pounds of survival gear, sitting in the back, you know, we would be in the aircraft for about 9 hours with no restroom, right? And so though we had trained, I trained for nine years, one month and 10 days from when I started at the Naval Academy till when I actually got to do my job in combat. And believe me, I was at the top peak of performance at that point.
But when I realized that when I was out on the aircraft carrier for nine months, that it was the perseverance. It was the consistency showing up day in and day out. And it was the resiliency and being able, when we would face these obstacles, when we would face these massive challenges and things that, you know, it was a mission ender. Hey, we couldn't go forward with the mission, but instead of seeing it as, hey, this is, this is, you know, no can do, we had to see them as obstacles, as just speed bumps in the road and the attitude to approach that and realize that, hey, we were equipped with the skills, the problem solving, the resources to be able to, you know, create innovative solutions and leverage what we had in our bag of tools to think differently about problems and be able to engage the enemy, to really help innocent civilians on the ground was when I realized that as leaders, you know, it's not getting to that level of performance, it's being able to deliver when things aren't going right, when we're on a down streak and nothing seems to be going your way and you know we're having issues with the machines. We're having issues with the team. We're not exactly firing on all cylinders. We still show up and we get the job done.
By making the right decisions, by making the safe decisions, because we rely on the core of those things that are ingrained in us. And when you do that small stuff right and when you do it right every day is how you can really then tweak those performance factors that are optional to be able to to achieve those really precise targets. And so that's, you know, maybe it's a little bit of a far stretch, but at the age of 25, I realized that and then over the last, you know, 15 years I've been honing that and applying it to different problem sets and you know, whether it's the private sector, whether it's, I worked for a senior principal in the federal government and we were, we were advising, you know, globally on some of these problems. It transcends every industry, every position, every problem that we're trying to solve.
NS: I've heard from so many veterans that the military is the greatest teacher of all, and it like, sets you up for that foundation of not just accomplishing, but also just learning and provides a strong framework for which to tackle any problems or obstacles that you see. But yeah, so talking about your life now in the private sector as a civilian, you're a leadership consultant and coach, and I want to hear about what you've seen and heard and how you may be drawing on parallels from your time in the military or just other experiences that you've garnered along the way.
CJ: I'm a talker. I love telling stories and I go out there and you know, my job now is to go out and work with senior executives and their teams to transform organizations and cultures, you know, from these places where safety is not a priority or we're not doing things right and we're struggling with, you know, absenteeism. We're struggling with people getting hurt and people, people getting killed on a daily basis and we go in and help them do better. And so I love getting in there. I love getting my hands dirty and talking and saying, all right, tell me what we're thinking up top. What do you think is going on? And then I love getting out.
I've been working with a few clients the last couple months and I've gotten the opportunity to go out and work with frontline leaders and I think one of the biggest lessons that I've learned is, you know, inherently we realize that everyone shows up to work every day. We all go to our jobs and we're there for a purpose, whether that purpose is to put food on the table for your family, or to challenge ourselves and learn new skills and grow and promote into different positions or you're passionate about the work that you do.
Everyone typically shows up with good intent. They want to do good. They want to show up. And when we look at the things that aren't going well, you know it's because there are either obstacles, whether it's brain center hazards that people are distracted because their dog's sick or their family's having issues or, you know, they've been told that their landlord's going to sell the house and they have to move out. Like things just weigh on you and it's completely relatable, completely understandable but unless we show up and we listen and we ask questions and lead with curiosity, we don't really realize what those barriers to success are. And especially in the realm of safety, if we don't take the time to slow down and say, yeah, I asked about safety. I asked how things are going. Oh, great. Two thumbs up. Like, no one's gotten hurt unless we peel back the layers of the onion and say, hey, what about that?
We ask questions and we say, huh, it's a new set of eyes around here. Let's look at this in a different way. Or, you know, let's look at what's stopping us from achieving the levels that we want to be at. We don't get there. And so, you know, especially in safety, safety and I've worked in my past life, I worked with all these different industries, high reliability organizations. I worked with Wall Street, a lot of top financial firms. I worked with a lot of insurance. I worked with a lot of these. We call them HROs, high reliability organizations, which when you look at these high risk industries that we now work with at DEKRA.
So manufacturing, oil and gas, like these high risk endeavors and jobs that people do day in and day out, there's a lot of similarities and because we have a ton of rules, a ton of regulations, regulating healthcare, regulating finance, but also regulating the way that we operate daily, day in and day out. And I've realized that to be successful and I've taken these lessons from Wall Street, from these other firms I've learned with or I've worked with.
It's being in touch with your people. It's communicating day in and day out. It's taking the time to not say, hey, you're not following the rules, put your PPE on, do this, do that, and directing people because they kind of shut down, to saying, hey, what's stopping you from doing that? How can I help? Like, what are we, you know, and why does it matter? What's the reason I'm asking you to do this? Because we're all sophisticated human beings. We wouldn't be on this earth. We wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't have families, if we didn't have hobbies, if we didn't have things and showing that respect, though it takes a little bit of extra time and energy from a leader. Those are the leaders that I remember from my time in the Navy and I think that's what we're all trying to be at the end of the day.
NS: Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that because I wanted to ask you about the way we look at other leaderships. Because something I heard years ago that stuck with me is that leadership is a learned skill, just like riding a bike. And you have to practice it to get better. But we're looking at and maybe trying to emulate people who are at the top of their game and have been for many years. And that's maybe not a fair comparison if someone's in a new role or is not responsible for, you know, leading one of the world's largest financial institutions.
CJ: That’s really, really interesting. And I actually have a story about that one. So when I was out on the aircraft carrier, there our Admiral was in charge of not only the aircraft carrier, but also the 11 warships and two nuclear submarines that went along with the aircraft carrier. This man had a lot of power and he had a lot of people who were working for him and his call sign was bullet. And this man, you know, when you hear about him, you would assume like, oh, he's 10 feet tall, and in reality, he was a petite man. He was statutorily challenged.
But he left this impact on me, not because, you know, he was an incredible leader and the and our whole strike group is what they call it, a carrier strike group. We set record after record after record, because we were in the right place at the right time. We were the first people to go back into Iraq in 2014. We were the first people to neutralize ISIS. We were the first people to do a long-range TLAM strike into Syria. And that is not what I remember Bullet for. What I remember Bullet for and what he taught me and what he demonstrated to me was he and I would fly together all the time. I would always be his Goose and he'd be my Maverick and we'd go out to fly missions.
And on every mission we went out to go do, I always had to build extra time into our timeline because we would put our flight gear on and we would walk up to the flight deck of the aircraft carrier and he would take me and usher me into these field trip locations. And then he would introduce me to these sailors who were working on the flight deck and he would ask the sailors, you know, he'd go up and shake their hand and say, hey, I'm Admiral Miller and these young men and women would look at him with the massive deer in the headlight look like it's an Admiral talking to me. I've never been talked to, you know, by an officer and a senior officer in my life.
And he would ask the sailors, tell me what you're doing out here. And the sailors would start to show him their job. And he'd show me these really unique things that were essential to keep the aircraft carrier functioning. And as he would ask these sailors, hey, tell me what you're doing out here, he would say. You know, what about your family at home? Oh, I have a mom and three sisters.
And you know, he said. I bet they're proud of you out here. And I want you to tell them that Admiral Miller said thank you. Thank you for being out here and thank you for allowing, you know, your son to be here serving in the best Navy in the world. And then he would also ask him, you know, hey, what are you doing to be safe out here to make sure that we make it home at the end of this deployment? And they would tell him, and he said, you know what, can you keep doing that for me? And can you make sure you do the same for that person over there? And those actions changed those sailors’ lives and just that small 5 minute conversation, that is what I learned from him.
And I have continued that in my career anywhere you meet. Last night I was on the plane flying home from my client site and I talked to a man named Chip and we chatted for over an hour and I was talking to him. He'd never gone to college and he's got this incredibly successful career in security sales. He does all the badging for high reliability organizations, hospitals, financial institutions and he sells all that stuff and we were talking about it, about how important it is to get to know your people, to just have honest conversations and say hey, how can I help? How can we do this better?
And just being willing to meet people where they are, that's what Bullet showed me. And that I took from this man who ran an organization of 15,000 people. And he showed me and taught me those little things. And that's what we all need to remember. It's that small stuff. It's getting out there and asking people, hey, show me what you do, show me how you're doing it safe.
NS: We’ve heard survey after survey or study after study or research after research that that tells us that small stuff matters and that. You know, it's like that Maya Angelou quote. Like people don't always remember what you say, but they remember how you make them feel. And people perform better and can be safer when they think they're someone else who cares about them and their safety. And to your point, Chip didn't need a fancy, Ivy League degree to know how to do that. And to a certain extent, not all people who have those fancy Ivy League degrees know how to do that either.
CJ: On that note, this is a kick I've been on recently is you don't need a college degree to use critical thinking and problem solving and one of the biggest parts that I've been focused on over the last few months is asking the right questions to engage critical thinking and pull people up from, you know, we talk about the social media generation and people just scrolling and just kind of going through life like they're scrolling mindlessly at the end of the day on their phones.
And I think as leaders, one thing I'm challenging my clients to do is ask the questions that stop the scrolling, the just mindless scrolling through life. Ask the questions that force people to think critically and take ownership of the problems that we're trying to solve and that shows that you care. They'll start doing that. It'll be more consistent overtime and that's how we're going to start to achieve different results than we're seeing that are frustrating us every day.
NS: Absolutely. I wanted to know if you had any advice for our listeners on things they can do to improve their own leadership, leadership capabilities, whether or not they have leader in their title, which is something we talk about a lot too, that you don't have to have manager or leader in your title in order to be one at your organization.
CJ: Chip and I talked about this last night on the plane, and I went through, you know, the basis of power and influence tactics. But it's so interesting that, you know, in organizations, there's so much research today, and one of my colleagues at the University of Chicago actually publishing a book on it that's coming out this this next fall. The people that have the most influence in the organization, the majority of the time are not the ones with leader or with CEO or you know CFO in their title. It's the people who build relationships, who build trust, who take the time to go out like bullet and get to understand what everyone does, get to understand what everyone's superpower is, and then they leverage that superpower to build teams who support one another and work together towards similar objectives and so my goal in every job that I've had is to lead myself out of a job and to make myself, you know, not necessary in the scheme of things.
And the way that I do that is by getting to know people where they're at and and just saying, hey, what are you good at? What do you love to do? Do that more. Do it so I don't have to do it right. Let's give you the power and the ability to take responsibility and take action and think critically about how to solve problems, whether that's on the floor. I saw it the other day on a client site, this gentleman was the boiler man and the wastewater guy at a manufacturing facility. And to see the way he'd been there three years, to see the way he was proactively identifying gaps and solving them and his network of people. I asked, who are you talking to? I talked to this guy and I talked to that guy and he's delivering that next week. And we said, hey, great job solving all these problems on your own and thinking about how you can make the workplace not only safer, but function better.
And then we asked, how can we get him to teach other people how he's doing it? And so leveraging his strengths and giving him that ability to showcase what his skills were, we're going to take him and magnify his impact in the organization and that's like, that's a dream. That's what I wish we could do with every single client, with every single member of the teams that we work with. It's so much fun.
NS: I love the example that you just provided because it makes me think that this gentleman probably didn't realize the extent of what he was doing. And he didn't realize that he was, you know, using these leadership tactics and communicating with people. He just probably saw it as a problem and him trying to do his job and do it better. And you know, so I think sometimes too, it's really easy to get lost in our own head and to not take a step back and say, wait a second, let me actually list all of the things that are going on here, because it's usually more than we realize or can articulate, or our brain is usually going 2 steps ahead and you're not stopping to think, hey, what are the 16 things that I've already done in order to get to where I am? So recognizing the success that's already happened to get to that point too is powerful.
CJ: It was funny. So we asked him, we said, hey, how have you been so successful at getting all this done? This is more than I've heard anyone, you know, be able to get done at this, at this organization. And he said, he joked, he said, oh, I'm really good at nagging. And it was funny because he exhibited and emulated these leadership skills that we work really intentionally to develop.
So closing the communication loop, providing, you know, creating that feedback loop and then also figuring out like, hey, the network, the people building the relationships, building the trust that you know when he brings up a problem, he also identifies a solution and says, hey, here's why this solution would work better than we're actually doing. And so he's just making it easy for people to help him and do their jobs.
Think about it, it's all of these challenges that we face. If we can make that handshake really easy, and if we can think about, hey, what other people might need to get things done, that's when we're going to create organizations that flow and everything feels smooth and, you know, those are the type of places that we all want to work and that the winning teams that we all want to be part of.
NS: It's so easy to see when things gel, but getting to that state is hard. Well, I've so enjoyed my conversation with you today. I just wanted to ask if there's anything else you'd like to share with our listeners.
CJ: It's hard. I realize how many veterans and how many families of service members are out there and part of this incredible community, both EHS Today and the greater EHS community and world of safety. And I want to thank you for your service and I want you to acknowledge it and be proud of it because, you know, less than 1% of the American population will actually serve in the military. And it's about 2% who's actually connected to it. And so thank you for answering the call and thank you for supporting those who do answer the call. And, you know, let's keep doing it and let's keep supporting these future generations, because that's this is what we stand for as Americans. And you know, those military members out standing on watch, they're keeping us safe here at home and allow us to live that incredible life that we do. So thank you.
NS: Thanks again to Caroline Johnson of DEKRA. If you’d like to learn more about leadership, please visit our website at ehstoday.com. If you liked this podcast, we encourage you to subscribe to the Great Question wherever you get your podcasts. For EHS Today, I’m Nicole Stempak. Take care and stay safe!
About the Podcast
Great Question: A Manufacturing Podcast offers news and information for the people who make, store and move things and those who manage and maintain the facilities where that work gets done. Manufacturers from chemical producers to automakers to machine shops can listen for critical insights into the technologies, economic conditions and best practices that can influence how to best run facilities to reach operational excellence.
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About the Author
Nicole Stempak
Nicole Stempak is managing editor of EHS Today and conference content manager of the Safety Leadership Conference.